nw championship results?

[AlbertB]

Last year when I found out about the series half way through I decided to continue and compete and it resulted in a placing for me. It was a lot of fun and that was my expectation, not knowing about the previous years having not been providing awards.

The BBQ was a lot of fun and the award was a pleasant surprise. So, that was my expectation. It ran smoothly with awards at the end.

It sounds like a plan is in motion and we will have results hopefully before the beginning of the next series.

Again thanks to all that are putting effort toward getting the results out.

[Albertl]

Thank you all for the updates. Just like the other who have posted - the intent is not a knock on anyone but to raise concern. This is a good thing - it is better to understand the thoughts of your membership than to have no one speak up. There 2 things at play here are expectation and relevence.

Expectation: Irrespective of what was done in the past (I am new so have no context for the history), the communication and expectation was that at the end of the series, we would have the final results. Imagine going into an Area 1 match or for that matter a local match thinking that you would get the results at the end of the match when at the end, there are no results. You are then told that the results will be posted some time in the future yet to be determined. Would the contestants be disappointed? The answer is a resounding YES.

Relevence: Again ignoring the past. If you had finished a match (any match), you find out that the results will be a 6-12 months from now. How relevent would that be? Not very. Would it be as exciting getting the feedback in a timely manner - not really. Perhaps you might not even be ther when it is announced. If in the past, you announce results the following year - I would still urge you guys to not do that. Just because that has been the way that it was done, does not mean that it is the right thing for the sport. Make it relevent, make it exciting, make it timely.

Steve, thanks for keeping us in the loop.

[SteveZ]

I'll let you in on a little secret (or maybe its not so little if you've successfully read between the lines). The question that the SXCOM is trying to deal with pertains to the scoring of the Championship Series matches as it pertains to competitors who are either 1) not NWS members but compete in a Series match and win or 2) are NWS members who don't compete in enough Series matches but win at least one of those.

When it comes to calculating Series results, the competitors percentage from the Series match is used. The question that we're dealing with is how to deal with competitors who fall into #1 or #2 above. Do you include their scores or do you remove their scores and refactor all of the eligible competitors so that they are shooting "heads up" against each other and not influenced by outside ineligible shooters?

Including the scores of ineligible shooters makes the final calculation very simple...you just take the numbers from the match results and use them....but there is a question of equality if you do this. If Rob or Travis or Max suddenly decided to show up for a Series match (now that will never happen...... ) and you go...but I decide to stay home there is a good chance that your score will probably not be as good compared to if you weren't shooting against them. You can always shoot another match to replace that score...but for one reason or another, you may not have that option. So you're stuck with a low score in your final tabulation. A similar argument can be made about NWS shooters who don't shoot enough matches. I'm not saying that his would happen but a "hotshot" shooter could really help his buddy out at the end of the Series by selectively shooting in a Division to push down the scores of his competition (and better yet, his buddy stays home and reaps the rewards).

Refactoring removes ineligible shooters (either because they're not NWS members or are but didn't qualify) from the Series scores ONLY if they win their division and gives the 100% score to the highest eligible shooter for that match and then refactors everyone else based on that shooter. As you can see, this process becomes very complicated because you have to go through the NWS database to determine who is and isn't a NWS member (remember the 45 minute delay at the NorthWest Challenge awards...guess what they were doing?) and in other case, after the Series is OVER, you have to go through and verify those that competed in enough matches and then cross check that there weren't any instances where someone who didn't shoot in enough matches didn't also win in one (or more) of the matches they did shoot in.

There are those who are fundamentally against removal of any scores and refactoring because it gives the appearance that the results are being "manipulated" or tampered with or might also argue that during the Series, you can't determine exactly where you stand because you don't know who is or isn't a NWS member or you don't know who has or hasn't shot enough matches.

The other camp argues that including ineligible shooters results in a Series doesn't result in head to head competition by the eligible shooters and the Series results can be manipulated by outside influences. With money on the line the temptation to "game" the Series increases.

So thats where we are...to refactor or not refactor...that is the question. If we don't refactor, you can go figure out the results right now on your own...if you do refactor...its going to take some analysis to figure out who won.

The one positive that has come out of this......WE'RE ACTUALLY USING THE FORUM FOR COMMUNICATION!!!

[DaveT]

I'll let you in on a little secret (or maybe its not so little if you've successfully read between the lines). The question that the SXCOM is trying to deal with pertains to the scoring of the Championship Series matches as it pertains to competitors who are either 1) not NWS members but compete in a Series match and win or 2) are NWS members who don't compete in enough Series matches but win at least one of those.

When it comes to calculating Series results, the competitors percentage from the Series match is used. The question that we're dealing with is how to deal with competitors who fall into #1 or #2 above. Do you include their scores or do you remove their scores and refactor all of the eligible competitors so that they are shooting "heads up" against each other and not influenced by outside ineligible shooters?

Including the scores of ineligible shooters makes the final calculation very simple...you just take the numbers from the match results and use them....but there is a question of equality if you do this. If Rob or Travis or Max suddenly decided to show up for a Series match (now that will never happen...... ) and you go...but I decide to stay home there is a good chance that your score will probably not be as good compared to if you weren't shooting against them. You can always shoot another match to replace that score...but for one reason or another, you may not have that option. So you're stuck with a low score in your final tabulation. A similar argument can be made about NWS shooters who don't shoot enough matches. I'm not saying that his would happen but a "hotshot" shooter could really help his buddy out at the end of the Series by selectively shooting in a Division to push down the scores of his competition (and better yet, his buddy stays home and reaps the rewards).

Refactoring removes ineligible shooters (either because they're not NWS members or are but didn't qualify) from the Series scores ONLY if they win their division and gives the 100% score to the highest eligible shooter for that match and then refactors everyone else based on that shooter. As you can see, this process becomes very complicated because you have to go through the NWS database to determine who is and isn't a NWS member (remember the 45 minute delay at the NorthWest Challenge awards...guess what they were doing?) and in other case, after the Series is OVER, you have to go through and verify those that competed in enough matches and then cross check that there weren't any instances where someone who didn't shoot in enough matches didn't also win in one (or more) of the matches they did shoot in.

There are those who are fundamentally against removal of any scores and refactoring because it gives the appearance that the results are being "manipulated" or tampered with or might also argue that during the Series, you can't determine exactly where you stand because you don't know who is or isn't a NWS member or you don't know who has or hasn't shot enough matches.

The other camp argues that including ineligible shooters results in a Series doesn't result in head to head competition by the eligible shooters and the Series results can be manipulated by outside influences. With money on the line the temptation to "game" the Series increases.

So thats where we are...to refactor or not refactor...that is the question. If we don't refactor, you can go figure out the results right now on your own...if you do refactor...its going to take some analysis to figure out who won.

The one positive that has come out of this......WE'RE ACTUALLY USING THE FORUM FOR COMMUNICATION!!!

HUH??? other than what is in bold type me not understand... (just kiddin'! thanks for taking the time to explain the situation steve!)

[SteveZ]

If you have an opinion on which way you think the Series should be scored, I'd recommend letting your shooters rep know how you feel. Afterall he does represent YOUR vote on the SXCOM, that's what he's there for.

[DaveT]

If you have an opinion on which way you think the Series should be scored, I'd recommend letting your shooters rep know how you feel. Afterall he does represent YOUR vote on the SXCOM, that's what he's there for.

no opinion from me. makes sense to do it the way you stated to be as fair as possible. now other folks might have something to say...

[SteveZ]

...but I stated TWO ways.

[DaveT]

...but I stated TWO ways.

oops! showed how carefully i read it...

[LLeone]

Refactor match results, pulling out all those not participating.
What if this was a local ladies match series? Same format, best 4 results of 6 local matches. The ladies would want to know how they did against each other without male influences.

[AnthonyF]

Results are finally out!

Go to http://northwestsection.org/NWS2009_Results.html

[AlbertB]

Thank you for posting the results!

I appreciate all the time and effort put in to get these numbers out.

[DaveT]

Thank you for posting the results!

I appreciate all the time and effort put in to get these numbers out.

me too!

[RickB]

Everyone knows the Championship Series awards and prizes will be presented after Sunday's (3/14) match at Paul Bunyan?

[EmanP]

Does one need to be present to win?

[AnthonyF]

If you know you've won, it would probably make Rick or Gary's lives easier if you were there to collect your prize. I think there was a couple of months last year that Gary was hauling around somebody's plaque and prize money until he finally ran across one of the winner.

I wonder if Gary charged a transport fee?